English Debating !!

[garzar]

I only start the thread you can start the topic

 

[Asereje]

as we all heard few days ago from the daily news that few weeks ahead there will be a new regulation that prohibits street vendors to trade alongside the road as well as beggars to beg for money from citizens, if any of the residence [this regulation will be implemented in Jakarta at the moment to test it's effectiveness] broke the regulation, they will be fined as much as 30 million rupiahs[Rp. 30.000.000,-]... although this kind of regulation really affects almost every social class in Jakarta, the government still have good reason to implement this regulation, it is because the government wants to warp up the mess[the street vendors,the beggars] which became quite a problem in Jakarta, which also increase significantly from day to day...

what do you think about it? are you affirmative with the government or you are against it?? which side are you?? do you have any solution in mind?

no junk and OOT please this is quite a serious topic...

 

[MetalicMilanista]

................................

With great action comes great consequences. The govt forbids people to feed the poor; so the simplest consequence is, the govt must be the one to feed them.
They've issued a regulation banning beggars, then consequently they should produce another one insuring that these people won't have to beg anymore.
I'm talkin' bout a bigbang program that gathers homeless people, build shelters, provide free food, jobs, and eventually build settlements for them.
If the govt isn't capable of doing that, then there's no point issuing the first regulation in the first place.
This regulation is purely political. It does not benefit anyone other than heavyweight investors.
What amazes me is, nowadays people are so fearless in admitting that they have no conscience. God forgives these assholes.

 

[Asereje]

dude above me, no double posting please, mod could just warn ya... /no1

although the government promises some compensation, but I certainly sure that the sum is even below their[street vendors/beggars] everyday income...

 

[MetalicMilanista]

I'm with ya, sista.
Now we know Jakarta municipal govt don't want to spend the right amount of cash to properly solve this homeless problem./pif
Well, the least they can do is, stop people from pouring into the city! /icAs simple as that. When they've managed to fix the "leaks on the bucket", only then they can start to clear out the murky water inside it.
This of course will lead to multiple scenarios, one of which resolving transportation problems /sob (this is the 1st spot u need to start off when u want to keep people from coming), getting smarter sniffing-dogs to detect KTP-fraud (even i, from jayapura, can easily purchase a jakarta KTP), etc.
This might seem as more and more work, more complicated then just leaving these beggars to starve to death on their own, but this is the right way to do it. Shame these officials don't care about right or wrong anymore/an

 

[Asereje]

nah... neverthless, the government never take it seriously when it comes to this kind of thing... just look at the increase of urbanization from day to day... remarkably, the government shamelessly increase the highway tax[ongkos tol in Indonesian] just to support the damage caused by the homeless people who built their hut exactly under the highway, that as we all know have caused serious fire storm at the centre of Jakarta which results in traffic jam for almost 2 days...

and now the government just increase the highway tax, which means townfolks have to pay for the damage... where is the government's sense of responsibilty... /an /an /pif

 

[MetalicMilanista]

Highway tax, hu?
Well, i think anyone who can afford a car isn't supposed to complain of highway tax .
I mean, come on, highway tax (how much is it now? 5,000?) isn't gonna bleed you dry if you're rich enough to own a car.
I think this is what they call "cross-subsidy". The wealthy pays more tax to cover for the needy who can't pay jack.
Are you saying the homeless who live under the highway should pay the govt? That's cold, girl... /hmm

 

[Asereje]

it's not that what I mean that it hurts that with the increase of the highway tax, well if you said that 'rich people' the what about the low class people? they do feel the impact, as the highway tax increases, the production cost of every aspect of living INCREASES, and you know what I mean, low class people suffers the most,

don't see things only from a single side, see things from both sides...

 

[d_one]

well, from my view the increase of the highway tax is trully not a bad decision that the gov made.
it's true also that we must see the convenient and inconvenient from both side, but try to think like that will confuse you more, and it's better to think from one side of view and tell if it's good or bad

 

[Asereje]

well, from my view the increase of the highway tax is trully not a bad decision that the gov made.
it's true also that we must see the convenient and inconvenient from both side, but try to think like that will confuse you more, and it's better to think from one side of view and tell if it's good or bad

keep on thinking like this, and you'll never see things objectively...
if the highway tax rises, prices would automatically rise as well dude, and in the end people will suffer the impact although it's not a direct one... think clearly dude...

 

[MetalicMilanista]

that's just an excuse for refusing cross-subsidy.
this chain-reaction of price hikes isn't some natural phenomenon that we can't stop. this is the act of speculants trying to take advantage of every situation. and the govt (also the people) should be able to stop this!
if you start justifying the upper-middle class refusing taxes for the excuse of avoiding price hikes, then you're not fighting the real enemy!
speculants are the ones you should fight; they're not invincible, and certainly not invisible! they're there in the community, all around us!
the govt should come up with something to ban illogical price-hikes, then set a reporting system for the public to access (does this system already exist?). then people report any case of deliberate price-hikes.

plus, i think the cost of living in Jakarta should be expensive. it is the nation's capital after all. that's one of the things you should do if you want to rid the city of slums and slummers: you heighten the prices so people would rather leave than starve.
you see beggars and the likes as a problem, right? that means you wanna turn Jakarta into a more exclusive place, right? well, exclusiveness isn't cheap.

 

[Asereje]

it's not like typically people see exclusiveness as burden... people rather leave?? ya think so? even though the poor ones could feel even a bit of increase on their life quality... as a result of metropolitan development,as we all see that Jakarta is the metropolitan with a plan called the city of 1000 malls[although there are certain projects left unfinished as the result of the inconsistence of the developer, and most are executed without real perfection]

or probably because the sum of their[low-class townsfolk] everyday income could just be more than the one they could earn at the place where-they-come-from... I wouldn't agree with that one... well there's no excuse about the cross subsidy which the wealthy ones aids the poor to be unimplemented[but it is already implemented-what could I do?]... even so, then where the hell is the subsidy reserved for this kind of problem[there must be reserved amount of money to aid in times like this... and it's likely a part of regional financial plan] but if the government said that it's used to aid other things... what kind of inconsistent government we have here?

 

[MetalicMilanista]

Well, i see at least we agree on one thing : the govt is incompetent. well then, you're getting a new governor soon, he should be able to fix that. Corruption... well, have you seen the TV series "Dark Justice"? or the movie "9 Naga"? There's my solution.
I think Jakarta's biggest problem is population. This problem couldn't be fixed even in Soeharto era, when the govt could simply move people by force! I imagine it should be even more difficult to solve now, where everyone's shouting "human rights" all the time.
I had a conversation with this british guy the other day, and he asked me if we had a law that protects people from being "moved/transported/trafficked against their will" by the govt (he was referring to the Porong mud dispute). I was shocked, and said the govt have been doing just that (transmigration, relocation of Porong victims and other victims of natural disasters).
He told me it was illegal in britain, that people there have the right to stay wherever they want, and the govt has no right to move people against their will.
I wonder what would happen if our human rights activists start thinking like this british does.

 

[LomX]

The govn just want to get a lot of money from increasing the highway tax

 

[legionsa]

I Think my english is very bad...

If I Makes a mistake give me comments...

I Know If the regulation active...The Poor in the street can't get earns from any people who cross the road...

Why the poor save at LP(Lembaga Pemasyarakatan)Or In A Yayasan?

Is the Poor make traffic Jam??

Once Again Sorry About My Bad English....

 

[MetalicMilanista]

I Think my english is very bad...

If I Makes a mistake give me comments...

I Know If the regulation active...The Poor in the street can't get earns from any people who cross the road...

You're right, your english is bad. but not VERY bad, though.
don't worry bro, practice makes perfect.

Why the poor save at LP(Lembaga Pemasyarakatan)Or In A Yayasan?

what do you mean?

 

[choloz]

Why the poor save at LP(Lembaga Pemasyarakatan)Or In A Yayasan?

Not Clear, in indonesian please

 

[indie007]

hey everyone, i just like to say that it takes two to tango and it is important to support what the govt (that you yourselves had voted in) is doing currently because criticisms will never end and if you believe in govt's decisions, even a wrong decision can be a good one, just take a look at our neighbour s'pore who obeys every one of its regulations and ended up being successful country.
and by this im not sayin that decision to end begging activities to be wrong but we need to be supportive.

 

[Messyman]

This regulation will never be effective. Still remember the regulation on smoking?

Besides that, this regulation is weird. The Jakarta administration is trying to stop people from being generous and charitable. They want Jakartans to be stingy.

Just One Word : Oppose it.

 

[loki almighty]

Well the reason why people kept coming to jakarta was because every working opportunities reside in jakarta... thousands of university graduates always look for their first job in jakarta.. if the gov want ppl to look somewhere else than jakarta, then they have to start improve other cities as well..