r3ck0rd
IndoForum Activist E
- No. Urut
- 35305
- Sejak
- 6 Mar 2008
- Pesan
- 10.527
- Nilai reaksi
- 117
- Poin
- 63
My Comment on 1986 Debate between Rev. Stanley Sjöberg and Syeikh Ahmad Deedat
“Is Jesus God?”
The debate was held in Stockholm, 1986, in a Stockholm church. This is my comment on their debate, the continued from the last night’s debate about, “Is Bible Truly Words of God”.
First Part: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rONRAi3y8og
Part 3
Tonight I feel calmer? We’ll see.
What Jesus says in the future? Then Rev. Sjoeberg better explain what will Deedat say about why Jesus does not know when is the end of time.
Part 6
Yes there are many words and kinds of wine in Israel. There are: YAYIN(Hebrew)/OINOS(Greek), which was told by Rev. Sjoeberg. The other “good” wine were: TIROSY/GLEUKOS, 'ASIS and MIM'SAKH. The hard, high alcohol wines are SYEKAR and KHAMAR. YAYIN was first founded by Noah, and YAYIN does have alcoholic percentage, but just a little. Noah drank a lot and then he was drunk and had his clothing stripped off by himself. The same YAYIN was used for celebration, and of course, also weddings. Melchizedek brought YAYIN to honor Abram. Jesus transformed water into OINOS/YAYIN. But wines, as I’ve said before, are not meant to be drunk too much, as it will make you drunk. And the wine words can’t be just mere grape juice, because the Hebrew word for grape juice is MISY'RAT 'ANAVIM. Yes wines are fermented grape juice, but YAYIN and TIROSY are fermented not because of the yeast, but because something inside the juice itself. Remember, Noah don’t know what is yeast.
The Bible does not say that alcoholic beverages are not allowed. The Bible only told us about self control. Would you be able to control yourself from being drunk?
If you’re Indonesian, you can read all about wine covered in Bible here: http://www.sarapanpagi.org/wine-dan-minuman-keras-vt868.html
Part 8
Mr. Deedat, and all Muslims around the world, you believe Jesus, but you don’t believe in Jesus. The stress is different. And you don’t trust in Jesus, you just believe Jesus. You don’t believe in Jesus because you all stated it yourselves that Jesus is the mighty messenger of God. But we, Christians, we believe Jesus, we trust in Jesus, and we believe in Jesus, because Jesus is the Message, the Word Himself, and the Word is, God. When you’re debating “Is Jesus God?”, you’re only debating about whether John 1 is true or not.
The Koran, really, is limiting God. The Koran degrades God’s mightiness. It says, Jesus is not more than a messenger of God. The Koran erases one God’s mightiest work. It says, that Jesus could not be crucified, instead Allah SWT, manipulated the scene, and switching Jesus into another person alike with Jesus. The Koran reduces facts. One of it is that Mary is a mere virgin woman. No she isn’t, she is a mere young virgin teenager girl, lived among crowded, and sinful neighborhood, but she does not fall to their ways. Why God chose Mary to bare God’s Son? Because she was a mere, young, virgin, teenager girl. And she has done well in God’s sight. God said that He would use young men to shine, and through them His works shall be shown.
The Roman Catholic Church does not worship in Mary. But the pray through Mary. Well that’s what is said. Jesus ate food, as a nature of being a human. He (the “He”, what’s inside the body) is 100% God. But His body, was 100% human. There is no need misunderstanding and stating this is a contradiction. When I say your body is 100% human body, it’s true. And if I say you have 100% human spirit, it’s true too, right? One difference from us and Jesus is that He is 100% God, not human spirit, because He was born from the Holy Ghost. Zombies, yes, in stories, they have 100% human body, true? You’re an idiot if you say no. But the spirit in the body is whether a not fresh or manipulated human spirit is, or it’s a random spirit that makes the body move.
Part 9
It is true that John 1:1 may be quoted from a Jewish Scholar named Philo of Alexandria, but this quotation could be inspired from the Holy Spirit. And from whose quotation did John take for verse 14? Read more about John 1:1 in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_1:1.
John 1:1
TR: εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον και θεος ην ο λογος.
TR-Translit: en arche en ho logos kai ho logos en pros ton theon kai theos en ho logos
LJV: In principio erat Verbum et Verbum erat apud Deum et Deus erat Verbum.
NKJV: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Note: LJV means Latin St. Jerome’s Vulgate, and the Literal English was according to The Greek English New Testament. Christianity Today.
It is true that in Semite languages there are no capital letters and rules of capitalization. And the original text of the New Testament was written in Koine Greek in Uncial Script. But in Latin letters, there are capital letters. Mr. Deedat stated that the word ton theon (τον θεον) should be a god (small letters), not the Lord (with capital letters). Ton theon (τον θεον) is an accusative case of theos (θεος). We’ll talk about grammar a little. You have been thought about sentence structure since you were little. The accusative case (an object, rooted from the word “accuse”) of a noun is the grammatical case used to mark the direct object of a transitive verb. The same case is used in many languages for the objects of (some or all) prepositions. It is a noun that is having something done to it, usually joined (such as in Latin) with the nominative case (English Wikipedia). The nominative case, the subject in the second part of the verse (ο λογος ην προς τον θεον) is ho logos (ο λογος), the word. The transitive verb was en pros (ην προς). I’ll tell you the simplest example of this: John sees Jane. In this case, John is the nominative case, the subject. Jane is the accusative case, the object. And the verb is see (sees).
Note: What Mr. Deedat means by common noun is like a human, and proper noun is the name, John, the John. And Mr. Deedat was not wrong by saying the second theos is ton theos.
This SUBJECT-VERB-OBJECT sentence rule has nothing to do with capitalization. This sentence is valid: I serve a Lord who is good. And it cannot be like this and I’m meaning something else by saying this: I serve the Lord who is good. Secondly, why not the first theos not “a god”? The “ho theos” word in 2 Corinthians 4:4, is for the devil. The capitalization rules in religious manners are different from general manners. The capitalized word of “Lord, God” should be written for the proper and righteous “Lord, God”. Ahmad Deedat didn’t fully understand the system of word capitalization, and that is acceptable, because English was not his first and mother language. He was born Indian. And he moved to South Africa. So Latin alphabet was not his first alphabet. It must be his second, his school has to teach their mother language first.
Part 10
Look at the context man. In his Combat Kit Book number 15, he gave another example which he gave too in this debate. Exodus 7:11 is about Moses as god over the Pharaoh. And the capitalization of the word was right. Moses is not a divine god. And by the way, Moses as god is the phrase was the nominative case.
Not an honest translation? If there is a verse about false gods, or god of a city (god in this context means conqueror) in the Koran, will you give them a capital ‘G’ in the translation?
About why is Father greater than Jesus (John 14:28), is because that time, Jesus was in incarnation limitations, and that time He was human. But because He is God, and when He left His human form, and back to heaven and receive the mightiness and glory He had before he came to earth, and became fully one as one God again. I’ll give you a simple illustration. If I say, that the President of Indonesia is greater than me, that is true because he is a president, and has greater political capacity and public recognition, but essentially, he is not greater than me as human beings.
You may say that it was Paul’s or John’s words, but they were inspired from the Holy Ghost. And it’s up to you to believe. We may not believe that Muhammad SAW received the Holy Quran from God’s Messenger Angel, Gabriel, at the Cave of Hira, as well as you do not believe that writers of our Holy Bible were inspired from the Holy Ghost. You may say, the inspiration was questioned because of the content. It occurs in the Koran as well. Why do we argue each other about this?
Why Jesus said that He said what God wanted Jesus to say? Because Jesus is one with God, and so He is God. Why didn’t Jesus say, “I am God, and so worship me”? Because if He say so people may misunderstood and worship Jesus in His human state. Get it?
Why Jesus say, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God” (Luke 18:19, NKJV)? The first statement, is not implying that Jesus is not good. This is one of Jesus’ difficult words. Let’s try to understand the context.
Luke 18:18-27 (New International Version)
The Rich Ruler
18 A certain ruler asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
19 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. 20 You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.'"
21 "All these I have kept since I was a boy," he said.
22 When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
23 When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was a man of great wealth. 24 Jesus looked at him and said, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! 25 Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
26 Those who heard this asked, "Who then can be saved?"
27 Jesus replied, "What is impossible with men is possible with God."
You can see the rich man only saw Jesus as a “master”, not a “God”. And because He is a “master”, the rich man thought that the Master is “good”, as his own understanding of being a good man because he kept the commandments. He thought Jesus is “good” for a false reason of being “good”.
Here we can see Jesus Christ is teaching us that good life or doing good deeds does not bring you to heaven and eternal life. In Isaiah 64:6 (NIV), it is written, “All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.” If salvation is determined by good deeds, why should Jesus come? Humans cannot reach eternal life, if the curse of sin still on them. It’s not all covered in this one passage, but we know from other parts from the Bible tells us that no matter how hard we tried to live an excellent and perfect life, but just one sin is enough to bring us to hell. So humans really need a redeemer. Jesus came to redeem humans’ sins. He came to save and redeem human from the curse of sin. Jesus is the only solution of our sins and giving us a chance to have eternal life, like the rich man hoped.
Note: About the passage above was translated from http://www.sarapanpagi.org/yesus-menolak-disebut-baik-vt462.html.
And so, Mr. Deedat, failed to deny Jesus is God from this way.
Part 11
Yes, Jesus left the Jews in confusion about He being the temple, but Jesus cannot explain that time that He is going to die, and rise again.
Mr. Deedat was using a wrong illustration of Jesus relaxing with God. Because they are one, one God. The “Father, Son, and Spirit” is the manifestation of the one God (I’ll avoid using the word “trinity” to be more universal). And I’m not sure if Mr. Deedat is a Jew. Yes, we are all in God’s thought before we were made. But not Jesus. Jesus is different from all of us. Mr. Deedat did not include the statement “if Jesus was really has Godly spirit”.
Jesus does not have to write a gospel book, the whole Bible is Jesus’. The red tint is for words spoken by Jesus and heard. Mr. Deedat repeatedly saying just show him a verse showing Jesus saying that “I am God and so worship Me” or not don’t waste my time. It’s a waste of time, and so is the debate, because you’ll never find it. The debate didn’t have to occur then.
Part 12
Again, a simple contradiction. If you understand my simple analogy about the Oneness of God, then you should not have a problem to understand why Jesus does not know when is the end of time, and only Father who does.
Mark wrote, “Neither the Son”. Mark did not wrote, “Neither am I.” Jesus, as a human does not know about it, but as a God, of course He knows. But He is stating as a human He does not have authority to it.
He knows everything that is to come. There are a lot of evidence, how He knew who was going to betray Him, He knew the heart of the dirty woman caught committed adultery and was about to be stoned to death, He knew the life history of a Samaritan woman who was talking with Him, He knows the hour he was going to be caught, and crucified, He knows when will He rose up again. Because He is God who knows about everything. If not, He didn’t know those things.
One illustration. A president of a nation is also a president head of a political party. As a president of a nation, he can elect a minister, but if he does it as a president head of a political party, he can’t.
Jesus was tempted by the devil as a human, not as a God. Mr. Deedat did not remember that Jesus was 100% God, and in the same time, He was 100% human. I’ve explained about this above. There is no contradiction about any of these verses: Mark 1:13, James 1:13. Jesus experience all of this, being a human, tempted by evil, tempted to not accept the cross, being in a trap, suffered as a human in a state of hungriness, poor, as the son of just a carpenter, and to experience carrying a sin in Him. Not His sins, because He do not sin, but our sins.
Part 13
Jesus did not know fruit season, and curse the fig tree because it did not have what He need, food? This is all wrong. First interpretation, that match the next issue about faith of the Scriptures in Matthew 21:20-22, Jesus cursed the tree because He knows the scripture (of course). In Leviticus 19:9-10, it says, “When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not wholly reap the corners of your field, nor shall you gather the gleanings of your harvest. And you shall not glean your vineyard, nor shall you gather every grape of your vineyard; you shall leave them for the poor and the stranger: I am the LORD your God.” The owner of the fig tree gleaned the tree, and so no figs left for the poor and the stranger.
Second interpretation, comes from the knowledge about this fig tree. Stated and publicized by Dr. W.M. Christie, a pastor of a Scotland Church in Palestine under the government of the British Kingdom, in a discussion years ago, he stated that if Jesus was crucified at April 3, 30AD (Nisan month, date 14, year 3790 of Jewish calendar system), then the event above occurred in the first days of April or around end of March. And by the end of March, fig trees grow so much leaves, and at the same time or sometimes occurs earlier, little buds named ‘taksh’ grow. They aren’t real fig fruits, but they are early fruits, and if they are at green almond size, it can be eaten by farmers (fellahin) or anyone who’s hungry. In older version of Encyclopædia Brittanica, it states as follows: the most primitive ones are caprifigs. They bear fruit tree times, the first ones were autumn fruits called profichi, summer fruits called mammoni, and winter fruits called mamme.
In verse 13, it’s not written that He was looking for a fig fruit, He was looking for something (NKJV, TR: “tis”). He was either trying to find a profichi or as Dr. Christie stated, the early fruits. But instead, Jesus found nothing.
And it has a deep meaning. The fig trees, should have something by the time Jesus find something on it, but it has nothing. The tree bear nothing. Jesus was trying to teach us, don’t bear nothing. Fig trees are a Jewish symbol of truth, and it has many leaves, symbolizes truth and religious works, but it has no fruit in truth. In Hosea 9:10, Israel was symbolized as a fig tree.
By the way, Mark wrote that it’s not figs season yet, firstly maybe because he doesn’t know the caprifigs type of trees and so He isn’t real Palestinian, or secondly, it’s not caprifigs but Jesus was really looking for almond-sized buds.
John 5:30 (NKJV) - I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.
About Jesus, a God in a Human form, I’ve explained this, should I re-explain?
The shortest verse in the Bible, John 11:35 (NKJV, AV/KJV, NIV, Amplified, NASB), “Jesus wept (εδακρυσεν ο ιησους - WH).” As a human, He can be sad. This is how He experience sadness, so that He can understand our sadness, and help us through it. He also experienced thirst, tiredness, sorrow, and all kinds of things mere humans may experience.
Part 13 is mutilated, I think, there were several jumps.
Part 14
The prophecy? I also read the answer of this question from the combat kit in SarapanPagi.org. It’s a good answer, but my answer is simple: the verse was not only for Jesus’ disciples. But it continues until now.
Part 15-16
By the way, the video editing was not good, so there has been a repeat.
First of all, I don’t care about your comment about Jesus being the King of Jews. And in Matthew 15:24-26, Jesus wasn’t racist, He is testing the woman’s faith.
Part 17
Matthew 7:21-23 states that if we only do those deeds, but we don’t know God personally, then, God does not know us either. The same as sons of Sceva at Acts 19:13-16. They want to exorcise the devil inside a man, but they don’t have faith. People who knows God, knows His commandments, and what He wants. But people in Matthew 7:21-23, they don’t know God personally. They just use God’s name so they have their fame maybe. Just using Jesus’ name doesn’t bring you to heaven.
And I don’t care about RSV scholars. They just said in their “intellectual”, it was fabrications.
Part 18
Questioned faith? This is already answered right on my earlier essay, thank you.
Good attitude of Rev. Sjoeberg’s wife. I liked her. She prayed for the young men who brought the poison for Rev. Sjoeberg until he was calm.
Here Rev. Sjoeberg gave a good answer for Jesus’ divinity using Matthew 18:20 (NIV) “For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them.” And Revelation 22:13 (NIV), where Jesus said Himself, “I am the Alpha and the Omega (in Hebrew: ALEPH and TAF), the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.” Who is the only beginning and the end? The one and only, God, and His name is Jesus. Is Islam’s teachings too, am I right? Saying that God has no beginning and has no end. Why the Koran said that, because God is the beginning and the end.
Part 19
10 minutes is not enough? Don’t worry. It’s all answered here. Mr. Deedat surely can’t read this because he is already dead, but you are reading this. And Ahmad Deedat’s questions are already answered in a Christian site, SarapanPagi.org.
Part 20
The name of our Lord, our God, is Lord Jesus Christ. If you’re praying to God, make sure you’re addressing it to our God, Lord Jesus Christ.
Part 21
Mr. Deedat was explaining Trinity in rush. By the way, in Trinity, it’s 3 persons. Not person to refer a human, but persona. The “fabrication”, or it’s called, the Johannine Comma, in 1 John 5:7-8, there is a text difference between the Textus Receptus and the 1881 Wescott-Hort Text. The text was a rewrite from older texts of Greek New Testament, and it is human’s nature that there may be flaws in human’s work. Like this. But Wescott and Hort did not miss the essence,whether Wescott and Hord recognize they were just notes, they’re still right. Anyways, this is the Johannine Comma/Koptein:
1 John 5:7-8
KJV: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
TEXTUS RECEPTUS (TR): οτι τρεις εισιν οι μαρτυρουντες εν τω ουρανω ο πατηρ ο λογος και το αγιον πνευμα και ουτοι οι τρεις εν εισιν και τρεις εισιν οι μαρτυρουντες εν τη γη το πνευμα και το υδωρ και το αιμα και οι τρεις εις το εν εισιν
NIV: For there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
WESCOTT & HORT (WH): οτι τρεις εισιν οι μαρτυρουντες το πνευμα και το υδωρ και το αιμα και οι τρεις εις το εν εισιν
Read more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma_Johanneum
Part 22
There is no such thing as Trinity in the Bible, it is true. The Trinity Doctrine was based on the understanding one of the early church fathers, Tertulianus, about the Oneness God, our Adonay Echad. Nowadays there are three types of beliefs about God:
Trinitarianism: The major in all over the world, and as you know. But many churches’ teachings nowadays are more alike Anti-Trinity, but they don’t know it because they don’t know anything about Anti-Trinity.
Antitrinitarianism: The minor opposed to Trinitarianism, they still believe that Father, Son, and Spirit is one, but not Trinity. They differ in some way, and I don’t have to explain here. I will clearly state, I’m Anti-Trinitarian.
Unitarianism: The belief that holds that God is one, and Jesus and the Holy Ghost isn’t God. New learners may be confused about Anti-Trinity and Unitarianism, their difference is Anti-Trinity holds that Father, Son, and Spirit is one and His name is Lord Jesus Christ, from the baptism formula. The believers of Unitarianism are Advent Christians and of course, Muslims.
A question from a Moslem about Jesus lied in John 7:1-10. Jesus didn’t lie, He didn’t say, I’m not going, nor He changed His mind after saying I’m not going. He only said, I’m not yet going.
The Bible isn’t stimulating incest. The Bible covers all the failures of His righteous men. The Bible covers that Abraham failed to be patient to have a son from Sara, instead he made a son with Hagar, and there is Ishmael, the father of Muslim nations. The Bible covers the failure of Lot, to keep his daughter’s morality, from the evil sins of Sodom and Gomorrah. The Bible covers the failure of David, to throw away his false sexual desire over Bathsheba. The Bible covers Moses’ failure, to pray to God so God gives His water to the Israelite by saying unto a rock, flow a water, but instead, Moses got angry with the Israelite, then he hit the rock twice. The Bible covers the failure of Jacob, for being honest to his dad. The Bible covers the failure of Solomon, to keep him wise, but instead, he marry 1000 women and feed them with His richness. And they got their penalties. Abraham’s, now Christians and Jewish may confront with Islam. David, his son laid his stepsister from David’s another wife, the death of Absalom, that Israel would be divided, and so many others. Moses’, God did not allow Moses to enter the Promised Land. Jacob’s, he tricked his father twice with his clothing and his mother’s food, then he again tricked twice by his uncle, Laban.
Why is Bible covering all this? It is because so that we don’t like them, and don’t do what they do wrong.
After watching this video, I know why Rev. Sjoeberg say Deedat like a Nazi officer, but does not explain why he should allow himself to angry and full of wrath.
Part 23&24
I don’t really get the man’s question to Deedat. He does not have a point. By the way, about treatment to women in Islam, you can look up at http://answering-islam.org/Women/index.html.
Part 26
The man misunderstood the Nazi part. And the funny part within this debate is, that both speakers continues their debate in answering other’s question.
Part 27&28
HA! Deedat’s talking about context, only to this. LOL. If Jesus clearly state in His human state, He is God, more question will be asked. Jesus only state what they have to know about, right now. Well, maybe like Rev. Sjoeberg said, the so misused “god” word.
“Do the Quran and Islam bring you close to the heart of God? Does Islam create peace between people? Why not try Jesus and ask Jesus to show you what he wants to do for you. You’ll understand that He has the answer. He is God.” - Rev. Stanley Sjoeberg.
Part 29&30
Ah, the last questions are not good enough.
I want you to know, once again, I made this, not because I hate Ahmad Deedat, not because I hate Muslims, but because I love my brothers, and I want them to know what’s really they’re debating about, that Jesus is God. They’re making arguments of the Bible, the challenger demanded the answer from the Bible, to be exact, while we all know it won’t be there, then this debate don’t have to exist. Ahmad Deedat is just wasting time, trying to find Jesus’ exact statement in written words, “I am God, and so, worship Me,” and put it into public debate events. Deedat don’t even accept when Rev. Sjoeberg present that Jesus is the Alpha and Omega.
I’m doing this, because you may have watched these kinds of videos, or articles, and struggle in your faith, I wanna say, that Jesus is your answer, and he is enough. Know Him deeper, and you’ll love Him more, and you don’t just believe Him, but you believe in Him, and trust in Him alone. And if you’re reading these kinds of text like mine because you’re not sure of your Christian faith, I just have one advice, pray to God, for you to experience Him. Every second and every moment of your life is God’s grace. Experience God today. Blessings be unto you.
If you’re Indonesian or you understand Indonesian, you can view SarapanPagi.org to view more articles about Christianity and Answering Questions towards Christianity.
1 Peter 1:7-9, 18-21
“7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith – the salvation of your souls.”
“18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.”
May the best from Christ be unto you,
Calvin Limuel
BibEL AppEL - Daily Apple from the Bible
One apple a day keeps the devil away.
“Is Jesus God?”
The debate was held in Stockholm, 1986, in a Stockholm church. This is my comment on their debate, the continued from the last night’s debate about, “Is Bible Truly Words of God”.
First Part: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rONRAi3y8og
Part 3
Tonight I feel calmer? We’ll see.
What Jesus says in the future? Then Rev. Sjoeberg better explain what will Deedat say about why Jesus does not know when is the end of time.
Part 6
Yes there are many words and kinds of wine in Israel. There are: YAYIN(Hebrew)/OINOS(Greek), which was told by Rev. Sjoeberg. The other “good” wine were: TIROSY/GLEUKOS, 'ASIS and MIM'SAKH. The hard, high alcohol wines are SYEKAR and KHAMAR. YAYIN was first founded by Noah, and YAYIN does have alcoholic percentage, but just a little. Noah drank a lot and then he was drunk and had his clothing stripped off by himself. The same YAYIN was used for celebration, and of course, also weddings. Melchizedek brought YAYIN to honor Abram. Jesus transformed water into OINOS/YAYIN. But wines, as I’ve said before, are not meant to be drunk too much, as it will make you drunk. And the wine words can’t be just mere grape juice, because the Hebrew word for grape juice is MISY'RAT 'ANAVIM. Yes wines are fermented grape juice, but YAYIN and TIROSY are fermented not because of the yeast, but because something inside the juice itself. Remember, Noah don’t know what is yeast.
The Bible does not say that alcoholic beverages are not allowed. The Bible only told us about self control. Would you be able to control yourself from being drunk?
If you’re Indonesian, you can read all about wine covered in Bible here: http://www.sarapanpagi.org/wine-dan-minuman-keras-vt868.html
Part 8
Mr. Deedat, and all Muslims around the world, you believe Jesus, but you don’t believe in Jesus. The stress is different. And you don’t trust in Jesus, you just believe Jesus. You don’t believe in Jesus because you all stated it yourselves that Jesus is the mighty messenger of God. But we, Christians, we believe Jesus, we trust in Jesus, and we believe in Jesus, because Jesus is the Message, the Word Himself, and the Word is, God. When you’re debating “Is Jesus God?”, you’re only debating about whether John 1 is true or not.
The Koran, really, is limiting God. The Koran degrades God’s mightiness. It says, Jesus is not more than a messenger of God. The Koran erases one God’s mightiest work. It says, that Jesus could not be crucified, instead Allah SWT, manipulated the scene, and switching Jesus into another person alike with Jesus. The Koran reduces facts. One of it is that Mary is a mere virgin woman. No she isn’t, she is a mere young virgin teenager girl, lived among crowded, and sinful neighborhood, but she does not fall to their ways. Why God chose Mary to bare God’s Son? Because she was a mere, young, virgin, teenager girl. And she has done well in God’s sight. God said that He would use young men to shine, and through them His works shall be shown.
The Roman Catholic Church does not worship in Mary. But the pray through Mary. Well that’s what is said. Jesus ate food, as a nature of being a human. He (the “He”, what’s inside the body) is 100% God. But His body, was 100% human. There is no need misunderstanding and stating this is a contradiction. When I say your body is 100% human body, it’s true. And if I say you have 100% human spirit, it’s true too, right? One difference from us and Jesus is that He is 100% God, not human spirit, because He was born from the Holy Ghost. Zombies, yes, in stories, they have 100% human body, true? You’re an idiot if you say no. But the spirit in the body is whether a not fresh or manipulated human spirit is, or it’s a random spirit that makes the body move.
Part 9
It is true that John 1:1 may be quoted from a Jewish Scholar named Philo of Alexandria, but this quotation could be inspired from the Holy Spirit. And from whose quotation did John take for verse 14? Read more about John 1:1 in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_1:1.
John 1:1
TR: εν αρχη ην ο λογος και ο λογος ην προς τον θεον και θεος ην ο λογος.
TR-Translit: en arche en ho logos kai ho logos en pros ton theon kai theos en ho logos
LJV: In principio erat Verbum et Verbum erat apud Deum et Deus erat Verbum.
NKJV: In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Note: LJV means Latin St. Jerome’s Vulgate, and the Literal English was according to The Greek English New Testament. Christianity Today.
It is true that in Semite languages there are no capital letters and rules of capitalization. And the original text of the New Testament was written in Koine Greek in Uncial Script. But in Latin letters, there are capital letters. Mr. Deedat stated that the word ton theon (τον θεον) should be a god (small letters), not the Lord (with capital letters). Ton theon (τον θεον) is an accusative case of theos (θεος). We’ll talk about grammar a little. You have been thought about sentence structure since you were little. The accusative case (an object, rooted from the word “accuse”) of a noun is the grammatical case used to mark the direct object of a transitive verb. The same case is used in many languages for the objects of (some or all) prepositions. It is a noun that is having something done to it, usually joined (such as in Latin) with the nominative case (English Wikipedia). The nominative case, the subject in the second part of the verse (ο λογος ην προς τον θεον) is ho logos (ο λογος), the word. The transitive verb was en pros (ην προς). I’ll tell you the simplest example of this: John sees Jane. In this case, John is the nominative case, the subject. Jane is the accusative case, the object. And the verb is see (sees).
Note: What Mr. Deedat means by common noun is like a human, and proper noun is the name, John, the John. And Mr. Deedat was not wrong by saying the second theos is ton theos.
This SUBJECT-VERB-OBJECT sentence rule has nothing to do with capitalization. This sentence is valid: I serve a Lord who is good. And it cannot be like this and I’m meaning something else by saying this: I serve the Lord who is good. Secondly, why not the first theos not “a god”? The “ho theos” word in 2 Corinthians 4:4, is for the devil. The capitalization rules in religious manners are different from general manners. The capitalized word of “Lord, God” should be written for the proper and righteous “Lord, God”. Ahmad Deedat didn’t fully understand the system of word capitalization, and that is acceptable, because English was not his first and mother language. He was born Indian. And he moved to South Africa. So Latin alphabet was not his first alphabet. It must be his second, his school has to teach their mother language first.
Part 10
Look at the context man. In his Combat Kit Book number 15, he gave another example which he gave too in this debate. Exodus 7:11 is about Moses as god over the Pharaoh. And the capitalization of the word was right. Moses is not a divine god. And by the way, Moses as god is the phrase was the nominative case.
Not an honest translation? If there is a verse about false gods, or god of a city (god in this context means conqueror) in the Koran, will you give them a capital ‘G’ in the translation?
About why is Father greater than Jesus (John 14:28), is because that time, Jesus was in incarnation limitations, and that time He was human. But because He is God, and when He left His human form, and back to heaven and receive the mightiness and glory He had before he came to earth, and became fully one as one God again. I’ll give you a simple illustration. If I say, that the President of Indonesia is greater than me, that is true because he is a president, and has greater political capacity and public recognition, but essentially, he is not greater than me as human beings.
You may say that it was Paul’s or John’s words, but they were inspired from the Holy Ghost. And it’s up to you to believe. We may not believe that Muhammad SAW received the Holy Quran from God’s Messenger Angel, Gabriel, at the Cave of Hira, as well as you do not believe that writers of our Holy Bible were inspired from the Holy Ghost. You may say, the inspiration was questioned because of the content. It occurs in the Koran as well. Why do we argue each other about this?
Why Jesus said that He said what God wanted Jesus to say? Because Jesus is one with God, and so He is God. Why didn’t Jesus say, “I am God, and so worship me”? Because if He say so people may misunderstood and worship Jesus in His human state. Get it?
Why Jesus say, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good but One, that is, God” (Luke 18:19, NKJV)? The first statement, is not implying that Jesus is not good. This is one of Jesus’ difficult words. Let’s try to understand the context.
Luke 18:18-27 (New International Version)
The Rich Ruler
18 A certain ruler asked him, "Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
19 "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good—except God alone. 20 You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.'"
21 "All these I have kept since I was a boy," he said.
22 When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
23 When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was a man of great wealth. 24 Jesus looked at him and said, "How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! 25 Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
26 Those who heard this asked, "Who then can be saved?"
27 Jesus replied, "What is impossible with men is possible with God."
You can see the rich man only saw Jesus as a “master”, not a “God”. And because He is a “master”, the rich man thought that the Master is “good”, as his own understanding of being a good man because he kept the commandments. He thought Jesus is “good” for a false reason of being “good”.
Here we can see Jesus Christ is teaching us that good life or doing good deeds does not bring you to heaven and eternal life. In Isaiah 64:6 (NIV), it is written, “All of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away.” If salvation is determined by good deeds, why should Jesus come? Humans cannot reach eternal life, if the curse of sin still on them. It’s not all covered in this one passage, but we know from other parts from the Bible tells us that no matter how hard we tried to live an excellent and perfect life, but just one sin is enough to bring us to hell. So humans really need a redeemer. Jesus came to redeem humans’ sins. He came to save and redeem human from the curse of sin. Jesus is the only solution of our sins and giving us a chance to have eternal life, like the rich man hoped.
Note: About the passage above was translated from http://www.sarapanpagi.org/yesus-menolak-disebut-baik-vt462.html.
And so, Mr. Deedat, failed to deny Jesus is God from this way.
Part 11
Yes, Jesus left the Jews in confusion about He being the temple, but Jesus cannot explain that time that He is going to die, and rise again.
Mr. Deedat was using a wrong illustration of Jesus relaxing with God. Because they are one, one God. The “Father, Son, and Spirit” is the manifestation of the one God (I’ll avoid using the word “trinity” to be more universal). And I’m not sure if Mr. Deedat is a Jew. Yes, we are all in God’s thought before we were made. But not Jesus. Jesus is different from all of us. Mr. Deedat did not include the statement “if Jesus was really has Godly spirit”.
Jesus does not have to write a gospel book, the whole Bible is Jesus’. The red tint is for words spoken by Jesus and heard. Mr. Deedat repeatedly saying just show him a verse showing Jesus saying that “I am God and so worship Me” or not don’t waste my time. It’s a waste of time, and so is the debate, because you’ll never find it. The debate didn’t have to occur then.
Part 12
Again, a simple contradiction. If you understand my simple analogy about the Oneness of God, then you should not have a problem to understand why Jesus does not know when is the end of time, and only Father who does.
Mark wrote, “Neither the Son”. Mark did not wrote, “Neither am I.” Jesus, as a human does not know about it, but as a God, of course He knows. But He is stating as a human He does not have authority to it.
He knows everything that is to come. There are a lot of evidence, how He knew who was going to betray Him, He knew the heart of the dirty woman caught committed adultery and was about to be stoned to death, He knew the life history of a Samaritan woman who was talking with Him, He knows the hour he was going to be caught, and crucified, He knows when will He rose up again. Because He is God who knows about everything. If not, He didn’t know those things.
One illustration. A president of a nation is also a president head of a political party. As a president of a nation, he can elect a minister, but if he does it as a president head of a political party, he can’t.
Jesus was tempted by the devil as a human, not as a God. Mr. Deedat did not remember that Jesus was 100% God, and in the same time, He was 100% human. I’ve explained about this above. There is no contradiction about any of these verses: Mark 1:13, James 1:13. Jesus experience all of this, being a human, tempted by evil, tempted to not accept the cross, being in a trap, suffered as a human in a state of hungriness, poor, as the son of just a carpenter, and to experience carrying a sin in Him. Not His sins, because He do not sin, but our sins.
Part 13
Jesus did not know fruit season, and curse the fig tree because it did not have what He need, food? This is all wrong. First interpretation, that match the next issue about faith of the Scriptures in Matthew 21:20-22, Jesus cursed the tree because He knows the scripture (of course). In Leviticus 19:9-10, it says, “When you reap the harvest of your land, you shall not wholly reap the corners of your field, nor shall you gather the gleanings of your harvest. And you shall not glean your vineyard, nor shall you gather every grape of your vineyard; you shall leave them for the poor and the stranger: I am the LORD your God.” The owner of the fig tree gleaned the tree, and so no figs left for the poor and the stranger.
Second interpretation, comes from the knowledge about this fig tree. Stated and publicized by Dr. W.M. Christie, a pastor of a Scotland Church in Palestine under the government of the British Kingdom, in a discussion years ago, he stated that if Jesus was crucified at April 3, 30AD (Nisan month, date 14, year 3790 of Jewish calendar system), then the event above occurred in the first days of April or around end of March. And by the end of March, fig trees grow so much leaves, and at the same time or sometimes occurs earlier, little buds named ‘taksh’ grow. They aren’t real fig fruits, but they are early fruits, and if they are at green almond size, it can be eaten by farmers (fellahin) or anyone who’s hungry. In older version of Encyclopædia Brittanica, it states as follows: the most primitive ones are caprifigs. They bear fruit tree times, the first ones were autumn fruits called profichi, summer fruits called mammoni, and winter fruits called mamme.
In verse 13, it’s not written that He was looking for a fig fruit, He was looking for something (NKJV, TR: “tis”). He was either trying to find a profichi or as Dr. Christie stated, the early fruits. But instead, Jesus found nothing.
And it has a deep meaning. The fig trees, should have something by the time Jesus find something on it, but it has nothing. The tree bear nothing. Jesus was trying to teach us, don’t bear nothing. Fig trees are a Jewish symbol of truth, and it has many leaves, symbolizes truth and religious works, but it has no fruit in truth. In Hosea 9:10, Israel was symbolized as a fig tree.
By the way, Mark wrote that it’s not figs season yet, firstly maybe because he doesn’t know the caprifigs type of trees and so He isn’t real Palestinian, or secondly, it’s not caprifigs but Jesus was really looking for almond-sized buds.
John 5:30 (NKJV) - I can of Myself do nothing. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, because I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me.
About Jesus, a God in a Human form, I’ve explained this, should I re-explain?
The shortest verse in the Bible, John 11:35 (NKJV, AV/KJV, NIV, Amplified, NASB), “Jesus wept (εδακρυσεν ο ιησους - WH).” As a human, He can be sad. This is how He experience sadness, so that He can understand our sadness, and help us through it. He also experienced thirst, tiredness, sorrow, and all kinds of things mere humans may experience.
Part 13 is mutilated, I think, there were several jumps.
Part 14
The prophecy? I also read the answer of this question from the combat kit in SarapanPagi.org. It’s a good answer, but my answer is simple: the verse was not only for Jesus’ disciples. But it continues until now.
Part 15-16
By the way, the video editing was not good, so there has been a repeat.
First of all, I don’t care about your comment about Jesus being the King of Jews. And in Matthew 15:24-26, Jesus wasn’t racist, He is testing the woman’s faith.
Part 17
Matthew 7:21-23 states that if we only do those deeds, but we don’t know God personally, then, God does not know us either. The same as sons of Sceva at Acts 19:13-16. They want to exorcise the devil inside a man, but they don’t have faith. People who knows God, knows His commandments, and what He wants. But people in Matthew 7:21-23, they don’t know God personally. They just use God’s name so they have their fame maybe. Just using Jesus’ name doesn’t bring you to heaven.
And I don’t care about RSV scholars. They just said in their “intellectual”, it was fabrications.
Part 18
Questioned faith? This is already answered right on my earlier essay, thank you.
Good attitude of Rev. Sjoeberg’s wife. I liked her. She prayed for the young men who brought the poison for Rev. Sjoeberg until he was calm.
Here Rev. Sjoeberg gave a good answer for Jesus’ divinity using Matthew 18:20 (NIV) “For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them.” And Revelation 22:13 (NIV), where Jesus said Himself, “I am the Alpha and the Omega (in Hebrew: ALEPH and TAF), the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.” Who is the only beginning and the end? The one and only, God, and His name is Jesus. Is Islam’s teachings too, am I right? Saying that God has no beginning and has no end. Why the Koran said that, because God is the beginning and the end.
Part 19
10 minutes is not enough? Don’t worry. It’s all answered here. Mr. Deedat surely can’t read this because he is already dead, but you are reading this. And Ahmad Deedat’s questions are already answered in a Christian site, SarapanPagi.org.
Part 20
The name of our Lord, our God, is Lord Jesus Christ. If you’re praying to God, make sure you’re addressing it to our God, Lord Jesus Christ.
Part 21
Mr. Deedat was explaining Trinity in rush. By the way, in Trinity, it’s 3 persons. Not person to refer a human, but persona. The “fabrication”, or it’s called, the Johannine Comma, in 1 John 5:7-8, there is a text difference between the Textus Receptus and the 1881 Wescott-Hort Text. The text was a rewrite from older texts of Greek New Testament, and it is human’s nature that there may be flaws in human’s work. Like this. But Wescott and Hort did not miss the essence,whether Wescott and Hord recognize they were just notes, they’re still right. Anyways, this is the Johannine Comma/Koptein:
1 John 5:7-8
KJV: For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
TEXTUS RECEPTUS (TR): οτι τρεις εισιν οι μαρτυρουντες εν τω ουρανω ο πατηρ ο λογος και το αγιον πνευμα και ουτοι οι τρεις εν εισιν και τρεις εισιν οι μαρτυρουντες εν τη γη το πνευμα και το υδωρ και το αιμα και οι τρεις εις το εν εισιν
NIV: For there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
WESCOTT & HORT (WH): οτι τρεις εισιν οι μαρτυρουντες το πνευμα και το υδωρ και το αιμα και οι τρεις εις το εν εισιν
Read more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma_Johanneum
Part 22
There is no such thing as Trinity in the Bible, it is true. The Trinity Doctrine was based on the understanding one of the early church fathers, Tertulianus, about the Oneness God, our Adonay Echad. Nowadays there are three types of beliefs about God:
Trinitarianism: The major in all over the world, and as you know. But many churches’ teachings nowadays are more alike Anti-Trinity, but they don’t know it because they don’t know anything about Anti-Trinity.
Antitrinitarianism: The minor opposed to Trinitarianism, they still believe that Father, Son, and Spirit is one, but not Trinity. They differ in some way, and I don’t have to explain here. I will clearly state, I’m Anti-Trinitarian.
Unitarianism: The belief that holds that God is one, and Jesus and the Holy Ghost isn’t God. New learners may be confused about Anti-Trinity and Unitarianism, their difference is Anti-Trinity holds that Father, Son, and Spirit is one and His name is Lord Jesus Christ, from the baptism formula. The believers of Unitarianism are Advent Christians and of course, Muslims.
A question from a Moslem about Jesus lied in John 7:1-10. Jesus didn’t lie, He didn’t say, I’m not going, nor He changed His mind after saying I’m not going. He only said, I’m not yet going.
The Bible isn’t stimulating incest. The Bible covers all the failures of His righteous men. The Bible covers that Abraham failed to be patient to have a son from Sara, instead he made a son with Hagar, and there is Ishmael, the father of Muslim nations. The Bible covers the failure of Lot, to keep his daughter’s morality, from the evil sins of Sodom and Gomorrah. The Bible covers the failure of David, to throw away his false sexual desire over Bathsheba. The Bible covers Moses’ failure, to pray to God so God gives His water to the Israelite by saying unto a rock, flow a water, but instead, Moses got angry with the Israelite, then he hit the rock twice. The Bible covers the failure of Jacob, for being honest to his dad. The Bible covers the failure of Solomon, to keep him wise, but instead, he marry 1000 women and feed them with His richness. And they got their penalties. Abraham’s, now Christians and Jewish may confront with Islam. David, his son laid his stepsister from David’s another wife, the death of Absalom, that Israel would be divided, and so many others. Moses’, God did not allow Moses to enter the Promised Land. Jacob’s, he tricked his father twice with his clothing and his mother’s food, then he again tricked twice by his uncle, Laban.
Why is Bible covering all this? It is because so that we don’t like them, and don’t do what they do wrong.
After watching this video, I know why Rev. Sjoeberg say Deedat like a Nazi officer, but does not explain why he should allow himself to angry and full of wrath.
Part 23&24
I don’t really get the man’s question to Deedat. He does not have a point. By the way, about treatment to women in Islam, you can look up at http://answering-islam.org/Women/index.html.
Part 26
The man misunderstood the Nazi part. And the funny part within this debate is, that both speakers continues their debate in answering other’s question.
Part 27&28
HA! Deedat’s talking about context, only to this. LOL. If Jesus clearly state in His human state, He is God, more question will be asked. Jesus only state what they have to know about, right now. Well, maybe like Rev. Sjoeberg said, the so misused “god” word.
“Do the Quran and Islam bring you close to the heart of God? Does Islam create peace between people? Why not try Jesus and ask Jesus to show you what he wants to do for you. You’ll understand that He has the answer. He is God.” - Rev. Stanley Sjoeberg.
Part 29&30
Ah, the last questions are not good enough.
I want you to know, once again, I made this, not because I hate Ahmad Deedat, not because I hate Muslims, but because I love my brothers, and I want them to know what’s really they’re debating about, that Jesus is God. They’re making arguments of the Bible, the challenger demanded the answer from the Bible, to be exact, while we all know it won’t be there, then this debate don’t have to exist. Ahmad Deedat is just wasting time, trying to find Jesus’ exact statement in written words, “I am God, and so, worship Me,” and put it into public debate events. Deedat don’t even accept when Rev. Sjoeberg present that Jesus is the Alpha and Omega.
I’m doing this, because you may have watched these kinds of videos, or articles, and struggle in your faith, I wanna say, that Jesus is your answer, and he is enough. Know Him deeper, and you’ll love Him more, and you don’t just believe Him, but you believe in Him, and trust in Him alone. And if you’re reading these kinds of text like mine because you’re not sure of your Christian faith, I just have one advice, pray to God, for you to experience Him. Every second and every moment of your life is God’s grace. Experience God today. Blessings be unto you.
If you’re Indonesian or you understand Indonesian, you can view SarapanPagi.org to view more articles about Christianity and Answering Questions towards Christianity.
1 Peter 1:7-9, 18-21
“7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith – the salvation of your souls.”
“18 knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, like silver or gold, from your aimless conduct received by tradition from your fathers, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21 who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.”
May the best from Christ be unto you,
Calvin Limuel
BibEL AppEL - Daily Apple from the Bible
One apple a day keeps the devil away.